ose-discord-backup/2025/02/Open Source Ecology - Project Development Channels - hydroponics [829824634114932756].json

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      "content": "Cyberpeasant44 — Today at 1:16 PM\nI wonder if farm automation would allow for a nomadic society. It doesn't even need to be fully automated. If I can make a machine that takes care of the watering, sunlight, and weeding, I can just rotate between microfarms throughout the country for harvesting, replanting, tilling, and other general maintenance. If they weren't so expensive, I could get one of those industrial grade robotic arms and use a controller or vr to do maintenance regularly. Maybe even set up a solar powered quad rotor with an fpv camera so I can inspect the whole property. If I went with hydroponics, that means even less moving parts. I can theoretically make a hydroponic fodder machine that grows the fodder on water canals and when they're done growing, just open the end of the canal and let the water push them out and into a trough so I can raise livestock. I'd just have to come back every now and then to replenish the fodder seeds, and check up on the machine and livestock.",
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      "content": "OwnerOfOwn — Today at 1:36 PM\nthink of it as a smart garden\nits really not that complex of a system\nget 7 sensors, humidity, temp, UV range, PH, ORP (millivolt reading to better understand nutrient content)\n\ndigitally controlled valve body for nutrient dispersal with a parasaltic pump, using one pump and the smart valve body you can switch which nutrient is dosed into the system.\n\nIt would be fairly easy to develop/piggyback on someone's project a machine learning assisted vision program to look for things like high nitrogen, or bites out of the leaves, dead leaves. you just load in pictures of ailments and then the ML algorithm gives you a percent chance that the image it sees matches one of those ailments, once its 90% sure, it will send you a notification\nI was thinking of this recently\n30-60 cycle on crops\nthroughout something like 100 trays\n\nby putting the trays on a conveyer, you could have one central bottom water tray, that as the tray passes through it gets fresh water,\nlights would be on the bottom of the trays\nunderside\nto tightly pack the conveyor as much as possible",
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      "content": "Cyberpeasant44 — Today at 1:44 PM\nI think a sophisticated program for detecting stuff like that would be too much work, at least for now. Again, having an industrial sized robotic arm, with a camera attached to it, and have it travel along a rail system to get access to all plants seems like a much easier way to do things. No need to code as much since I can just use the arm manually to snip off bits, remove weeds, take readings, etc.",
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      "content": "OwnerOfOwn — Today at 1:44 PM\nGMO micro greens to have high vitamins, grow seeds with nice macros of protein and fats, some carb fiber\nits actually super easy\na noob could do it in like 8 hours\nyou would use existing tools like those on an nvidia jetson\nthey have a whole training algorithm you just put in 200 photos of each ailment\nrobot arms are good\nyou would be able to service the trays from an array of stationary tools at each part of the rotation",
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      "content": "Cyberpeasant44 — Today at 1:47 PM\ninteresting\nOwnerOfOwn — Today at 1:48 PM\nyou only need 100-200 sqft to grow enough calories for your needs\nso 1x2 pans would need 50 to 100 pans to grow enough microgreens to feed you\nCyberpeasant44 — Today at 1:48 PM\noh yeah, I'd definitely go vertical with it\nOwnerOfOwn — Today at 1:48 PM\nand you would just cycle them and they would all be at different stages of growth\nvertical is kinda limited, this is horizontal pans but on a belt\nCyberpeasant44 — Today at 1:49 PM\noh okay\nOwnerOfOwn — Today at 1:50 PM\nso yeah, basically harvest a hydroponic tray everyday, make a smoothie and drink 2 green machines a day when times get tough\nthen spread these to every home in america\nand no american starve when the world collapses\nCyberpeasant44 — Today at 1:50 PM\nI've seen conveyer belt style systems, where all the plants float down a spiral staircase of a single hydroponic water canal. The speed is timed so when they reach the bottom, they're ready for harvest.",
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      "content": "yes, per eric's request the channel is soil free agriculture now",
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      "content": "aquaponics has weird ethical stuff too",
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      "content": "i need to add linkspam",
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      "content": "what ethics?",
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      "content": "seaweed's bit on azollaponics is really neat",
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      "content": "it's just using fish poop for nutrients right?",
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      "content": "fish are friends not food",
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      "content": "oh",
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      "content": "**s h a r k b a i t      h o o haha**",
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      "content": "I would love  salmon farm but idk if I can commit to that 5 year thang",
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      "content": "so when I think about it\nmake the trays dump in one basin, then go through a dry loop for root analysis, then they hit the clean water basin, scooping up perfectly maintained nutrient water, while the dirty basin is filtered and recycled into the clean water basin\nI need to nail down the wattage it would take to grow 3000 calories a day",
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      "content": "yeah I suppose keeping fish in a windowless tank their whole lives isn't healthy. What if you had a pond and just ran piping to and from it?",
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      "content": "it is a battery, just the output is calories instead of electrons",
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      "content": "put electrons in, get calories out",
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      "content": "i had a great series on this concept somewhere",
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      "content": "tiem for advanced memory query",
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      "content": "OwnerOfOwn — Today at 1:53 PM\nto figure out the cost of solar panels/feasibility of a skylight with a light collector on the roof\nCyberpeasant44 — Today at 1:54 PM\nyeah isn't the bottleneck of hydroponics how much power it uses?\nespecially if you're using uv lamps\nOwnerOfOwn — Today at 1:54 PM\nyup\nmatter cannot be created or destroyed\nor something\nCyberpeasant44 — Today at 1:55 PM\nyeah that one\nrules of heat or whatever\nOwnerOfOwn — Today at 1:55 PM\nsolar collectors are interesting\nCyberpeasant44 — Today at 1:55 PM\nI've seen those, but are they efficient for small scale?\nOwnerOfOwn — Today at 1:55 PM\nI think you could have a crystal lattice structure on the roof to collect the light and then let it rip on the trays 6 hours a day\nidk yet\nneed to do more research in the pv/collector stuff\nCyberpeasant44 — Today at 1:56 PM\nIf it was cheaper, I wonder if you can use fiber optics and connect them to the roof\nLike use fiber optics to funnel uv light to wherever you need like a pipe\nOwnerOfOwn — Today at 1:57 PM\nexactly that\njust with the lowest cost solution\nI've been thinking a lot of optically clear resin\nCyberpeasant44 — Today at 1:58 PM\nwhy not translucent mirrors so you can redirect through multiple levels?\nOwnerOfOwn — Today at 1:59 PM\nassuming rammed earth building is automated, I could pour in epoxy windows and vibrate out the bubbles for like 6 inch thick bulletproof epoxy windows, if the same applied to filling a could hoses with epoxy and vibrating the bubbles out, thats quite cheap.\nyee, lots of one way \"light valves\"",
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      "content": "Cyberpeasant44 — Today at 1:59 PM\nActually it might be cheaper and more durable to make resin sheets that are impregnated with reflective bits, like glitter but stronger. You can actively control how much light passes and how much gets reflected.\nOwnerOfOwn — Today at 1:59 PM\nyee\nthats sick\nthat's probably best\nmaybe reflectors directly into the bottom of the tray, then the glitter does the work from there\nCyberpeasant44 — Today at 2:00 PM\nhell, actually, you could make a solar tower, where the tower is just a cylindrical, vertical farm, and you just put mirrors all around it.\nthat way you're maximizing the surface area of the walls\nOwnerOfOwn — Today at 2:01 PM\nyeah, climate control and expensive equipment outdoors\nCyberpeasant44 — Today at 2:01 PM\nyeah coating the trays, rails, and literally everything with uv reflective paint or something would help too\nOwnerOfOwn — Today at 2:01 PM\nkey part of this is like inside the kitchen cooking up calories\nstainless steel mirror polished\nCyberpeasant44 — Today at 2:02 PM\nWell you could just build a cylindrical greenhouse with clear window walls, so just the plants are inside. The mirrors can stay outside.\nOwnerOfOwn — Today at 2:03 PM\ntrue\ninteresting\nidk\nseems like more labor\nCyberpeasant44 — Today at 2:04 PM\nwell yeah\nOwnerOfOwn — Today at 2:04 PM\nI want to be able to collect a tray from a single place each day\nfully grown, 3000 calorie mat of roots, seeds, and green\nCyberpeasant44 — Today at 2:05 PM\njust have it convey the trays directly to the kitchen\nharvest and cook right there, or pick it and place it in a fridge or root cellar\nalso the nice thing about hydroponics is that it recycles like 95% of its water, so for being nomadic, just bring back a tank of water to replenish any losses due to evaporation\nthat way you're not confined to set up shop wherever there's city water, a stream, or well",
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      "content": "Also new strains may be needed as stuff is kinda backwards",
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      "content": "Like with conventional crops you want one huge harvest",
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      "content": "cell culture meat will be the real winner",
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      "content": "throw it in a blender and get drinking, at least as a supplement to other staple foods, this is hedging against food supply chain issues",
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      "content": "OwnerOfOwn — Today at 1:36 PM\nthink of it as a smart garden\nits really not that complex of a system\nget 7 sensors:\n humidity, temp, UV range, PH, ORP (millivolt reading to better understand nutrient content)\n\ndigitally controlled valve body for nutrient dispersal with a parasaltic pump, using one pump and the smart valve body you can switch which nutrient is dosed into the system.\n\nIt would be fairly easy to develop/piggyback on someone's project a machine learning assisted vision program to look for things like high nitrogen, or bites out of the leaves, dead leaves. you just load in pictures of ailments and then the ML algorithm gives you a percent chance that the image it sees matches one of those ailments, once its 90% sure, it will send you a notification\nI was thinking of this recently\n30-60 cycle on crops\nthroughout something like 100 trays",
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      "content": "get 5 sensors:\n humidity, \ntemp,\n UV range, \nPH, \nORP (millivolt reading to better understand nutrient content)\n\nwhat else would you guys reccomend?",
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      "content": "I still don't trust plant meat. Maybe in a few decades when they get everything right.",
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      "content": "i'm getting a bit lost, @OwnerOfOwn are you referencing that older bit or repeating it or what",
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      "content": "you can do this neat thing via the upper right bit of messages",
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      "content": "what would the ideal sensor suite be for growing hydroponics?",
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      "content": "I could maybe make a channel for engineered meat substitutes / cell culture meat",
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      "content": "that too",
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      "content": "agriculture without soil",
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      "content": "marginally on topic",
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      "content": "rest well m8",
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      "content": "That and one for soil (also had an idea for an air quality/data one)",
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      "content": "ooh CO2 ppm sensor too",
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      "content": "yeah, I have a fair bit of plant growing experience, know what to look for, anything big I am missing?",
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      "content": "sensor list bump:\nCO2 ppm sensor\nhumidity \ntemp\nUV range \nPH\nORP( oxidation reduction potential, millivolt reading will give lots of data)",
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      "content": "the nutrient bit for the solution gets odd i guess",
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      "content": "wen 4th?",
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      "content": "I'm uncertain if the green revolution is a positive or negative thing. It seems to have dramatically increased crop yields everywhere but Africa with less severe downsides (ie pesticides less harmful than famine)",
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      "content": "I do like the idea of nature trails, maybe nobody wants to live in rural Kansas anymore because it's all mechanized farmland",
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      "content": "I think the centralization of land ownership for large scale agriculture is not good for workers but benefits consumers so",
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      "content": "It's a mess that this may help work out.  Kind of how like hunter gatherer -> farmer initially led to malnutrition, but added food security but now we have both",
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      "content": "Post-Plant Factory / Vertical Farming / Whatever term you use,\n\nThere would be little/no pesticides/fertilizers, high food security, high food diversity, as well as none of the geopolitical/human rights mess (banana republics etc)",
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      "content": "~~granted the unemployment that could result is a whole other issue~~",
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      "content": "I’m more interested in regenerating soil than being soil free, but @Wesxdz brought up good points:\nIndoor hydroponics don’t suffer from insect pests and weeds as much, because you have more control via e.g. netting, plus more efficient use of vertical space and less tubing needed for automatic watering.",
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      "content": "@Wesxdz  Other greenhouse farmers, I’d like to get multiple of these valves to control each “circuit” of plant watering https://www.adafruit.com/product/997\n\nDriven by 0 or 12V from a high voltage relay board, driven by Arduino",
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      "content": "Using an 8 channel version of the relay board from this design, thanks @Eric Lotze",
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      "content": "lol I was lookin at this exact valve earlier",
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      "content": "Elegoo makes amazing printers I want a mars 2",
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      "content": "Good point, still - kinda prefer food which grew in an 'natural environment' (what's left of it); for same reason it's probably incredible difficult (and expensive )to have an indoor salt water aquarium.\n\nI am doing garden my self and it's coming out way more delicious than any supermarket or near by 'farmer' stuff \uD83D\uDE42 - had to get 3 tons of soil since ours was polluted by construction waste - common practice during building construction here in Spain ...",
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      "content": "granted \"natural\" is kind of a myth, especially with domesticated plants.  Also current agricultural methods aren't sustainable/easy, and climate change's impacts will only make that worse.  As well as many countries developing which means eating \"staple crops\" -> complex diets, many of which are fragile fruits/vegtables etc",
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      "content": "Also it isn't too complex especially since it is so controlled.  (ie you can get close to \"spherical cows in a vacuum\", not many unknowns/factors at play) The only real cost would be up front investment, and energy, although given PV solar's cheapness and almost excess of energy at times i could see it being viable",
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      "content": "IIRC it is already viable for leafy greens and some other things where freshness is key",
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      "content": "as a consumer of a certain type of good that has been grown in soil vs grown hydroponically, I can't tell the difference. I love the romantism about soil and soil health, and soil conditioning. Fact is a 500 gallon water system is easier to condition than 5000lbs of soil. \n\nTo Eric's point, Hydroponics/media-based systems have more automation potential, and ultimately could be far more sustainable.",
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      "content": "But from where you get the good soil then ? It comes usually from within good connections with the surrounding nature and not some lab crap \uD83D\uDE09  \n\nThere have been a few good documentaries about soil creation and recovery; another reason to move to the mountains \uD83D\uDE42",
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      "content": "you know, nature developed over millions of years - we're part of it - literally created from - I don't think we can change the rules so easily - possibly the reason why we gonna fail for good because some psychopaths think they 'can change nature' within 100 years just - lol",
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      "content": "I think you are vitally mis-understanding the purpose of this channel",
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      "content": "Anyway - keep moving - really interested to see the outcome of this channel; there are possibly up to millions starving to death the next decades - not sure what crisis hits next but water and soil is long overdue - yeah",
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      "content": "humans could just get food from a bunch of automated tunnels and all that farmland could go back to the ecosystem",
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      "content": "I heard China is running out of ground water the next 10 - 20 years ...",
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      "content": "hope it's sooner",
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      "content": "1.1 billion people figuring out how to sustainable recharge water tables sounds too good to be true",
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      "content": "they just go conquer more water tables",
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      "content": "forgot about that",
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      "content": "this was the founding thesis behind this channel, that millions are subject to starvation with just a few simple hiccups in the modern supply chain or any number of world events",
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      "content": "great - more artificial crap !",
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      "content": "and yeah, it seems like india and china are responsible for everything in the modern world from a labor perspective",
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      "content": "spelling labor like laber",
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      "content": "in your dreams maybe - til then, we still have to bridge perhaps 20 - 30 years - if the atmosphere is still there \uD83D\uDE42",
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      "content": "This is my dream, how to call the rains with planting forests in a virtuous cycle .",
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      "content": "These relays and the Adafruit valves (8x) will arrive around Thursday the 29th. That will give us some time to figure the hoses, fittings, wiring, tanks, etc. you know @Wesxdz the easy stuff \uD83D\uDE42",
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      "content": "I was thinking about aeroponics/\"fogoponics\"",
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      "content": "one of the big issues is mineralization clogging nozzles/the need for those high pressure pumps etc",
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      "content": "I don't know if ultrasonic transducers get clogged/break down long term, but if not they may be a good option too",
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      "content": "But with the compressed air venturi based system, you just need a compressed air line, and these",
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      "content": "this may just me not realizing something / not having enough data, but i would assume the fouling/mineralization would be less in a venturi based system?",
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      "content": "yeah, compressed air is notoriously energy expensive, but I would be interested to see if a large/multistage parasaltic pump could do it with a small enough nozzle",
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      "content": "the scaling/mineral build up would likely be the same. this is my first time hearing of aeroponics/fogoponics",
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      "content": "The mist itself allows more oxygen for the roots, but the ultrafine mist (ie fog) is when stuff gets really interesting",
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      "content": "my thinking goes straight to an \"upstream\" (hahahah) solution of filtering those minerals in bulk, so that the nozzles don't clog, or just swapping nozzles to a vinegar bath twice a month",
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      "content": "ah yes, so it is a catch 22 of wanting those minerals in the fog",
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      "content": "For vertical farming isnt the large amount of power consumption required for LEDs a concern",
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      "content": "Unless you're using something like grow towers outside",
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      "content": "I personally don't see the appeal of using LED lights exclusively as a light source when we have the sun. There may be a case for using it as augmented light for night time, but I'm not sure it's worth the added overhead",
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      "content": "Yeah the commercial setups use LEDs but frankly if you're using power the capex is wayyy too high",
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      "content": "I used to do my hydroponics indoors with LED lights. If power is cheap it was really nice to have fresh food plants year round and not have to worry about pests, cloudy days, etc. It has a suprising advantage I didn't realize at the time, however, that i only now apprecite... no UV exposure ☀️ \n\nIn the last few years, however, I needed the garage space back so switched to hydroponically growing on my deck using natural sunlight only.. The sun exposure is intense and destroyed all my plastic bins in a single season.",
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      "content": "My various attempts to mitigate:\n-I tried every single kind of plastic paint I can think of and nothing holds up in the sun. It all rapidly degrades and flakes off and still all my bins get destroyed in a single season. \n-I tried covering everything with black plastic film but it is rather unwieldly, looks terrible, tears, and I struggle to get it to stay put especially on the bottom where the drain is. While it protected better than the paint, the plastic film also degraded and made a mess within a single season.\n-I then tried covering in fiberglass mat using marine grade resin mixed with a healthy dose of black pigment. The fiberglass doesn't remain stuck to the plastic so I have to lay several layers all the way around the sides creating a sort of shell. This approach worked the best so far but damn it was a lot of work and the fiberglass also UV degrades and requires touch up every couple seasons.\n-Building on this technique I built a 10ft long wood box for my reservoir which I covered in black pigmented fiberglass. Working but I wouldn't recommend it simply because god damn it is so labor intensive. I must have 40hrs of labor into a mere 15 sq ft of grow space. Not scalable from a labor or materials $ perspective.",
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      "content": "-This year I replaced my last plastic grow tray with one built entirely from stainless steel sheet. Got a giant milk tank from a scrapyard that came from a dairy and cut it into flat sheets with angle grinder cutoff disks (plasma torch was too rough of edge). Planned to weld all the seams together but good grief that would have been an insane amount of welding so I just welded enough spots to be strong and sealed the remaining parts with silicon. Building everything out of stainless is way more time intensive than I thought it would be but hopefully it will last a super long time.",
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      "content": "Here is my version using black painted PP grow trays that didn't last (but look good at the beginning of the grow season in this pic)",
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      "content": "Here is this year's version with stainless steel grow tray on the left (painted black for aesthetics) and older fiberglass covered polypropylene grow tray on the right",
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      "content": "You can also see I'm slowly switching from using milk jug bottoms as pots (which get destroyed in a single season) to purpose built metal ones fabricated from recycled aluminum sheet",
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      "content": "I should have mentioned I now exclusively use a flood and drain style system. My first couple years I had nine different systems all running as a deep water culture (air pumps, air stones, plants on floating rafts, etc). It was a noisy maintenance nightmare compared to cheaper flood and drain, i didn't notice much difference in growth rates, and flood & drain seems to be compatible with a wider variety of plants.",
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      "content": "I also spent a fortune on those lightweight clay balls which now seems like a waste of money - now in storage. I find simple cheap pea gravel from home depot works better for me.",
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      "content": "Can't affordably grow food with a system cost of ~$100/sqr ft between time and labor",
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      "content": "Anyway... the TLDR for my outdoor hydronics journey is that I've yet to find materials cheap, durable, and easy enough to construct to ever consider scaling up. Maybe concrete? Thinner sheet metal with some sort of external reinforcement frame?  Maybe containers built from precious plastic style recycled plastic sheet covered with thin aluminum sheet metal for the UV?",
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      "content": "Care to join me in replicating the recipe for self-healing Roman concrete? \uD83D\uDE42 https://discord.com/channels/700486873272811562/845335418584039474/1255114049210028094",
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      "content": "@Cmjstealth - nice, I remember others with same conclusions ( labor / energy per nutrient ). Personally, I wont let any plastic getting near food, ...\n\nmore research : \n\n- https://forum.osr-plastic.org/t/food-aquaponic-projects-resources/11024 (generated via OpenAI/PerplexityAI)\n- components (vertical) : https://forum.osr-plastic.org/t/hydroponics-components-from-recycled-plastic/8250",
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      "content": "plastic-sheet & AL foli : will try, got plenty of sheets, and sun \uD83D\uDE0E",
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      "content": "btw. natural light, might it be possible to use optics, and a 'smart' collector to harvest light/energy and then distribute where you'd need it ? could need this as well for melting stuff \uD83D\uDE42",
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      "content": "Although not a top priority project for me right now... just had a random crazy idea. What if instead of pumping nutrients from a reservoir into floodable trays filled with pots.... imagine a setup where the pots themselves are intermittently lowered into a large tank/lake of nutrients with some mechanical system. This would allow you to eliminate all of the plumbing, all the pumps, the entire grow tray structure, and even the filters. \uD83E\uDD14 I've never seen anyone try anything like this before.",
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      "content": "You're essentially describing a cross between a self-wicking grow bed and a keyhole garden. Requires no plumbing and you have fertilizer in the form of compost tea leaching into your growbed.",
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      "content": "It was basically just volcanic ash as the cement, right?",
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      "content": "Granted you can make some bonkers concrete mixes if you have the money.  IDK if we have a channel or if i have rambled properly on-wiki yet but yeah.\n\nAlso some concrete engineer (for lack of the proper word i guess) has a whole youtube channel and covers stuff",
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      "content": "That and the hot mixing of quicklime directly into the cement mixture seemed to be the critical part.",
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      "content": "grow food, using 'recycled plastic' - here a 60x60x15mm sheet sliced up and bent, using at least 20T pressure ; easily a day, robust, modular bla bla \uD83D\uDE42\n\nWIP : https://git.polymech.io/PolyCraft/poly-mech/src/branch/master/cad/drawers/600 - a client, a carpenter will try it sometimes this months \uD83D\uDC83",
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      "content": "and here the machine, still all immature, stupid expensive and risky, https://files.polymech.io/files/machines/sheetpress/cassandra-edczmax-rc2/ - pretty much the limit what a local machine shop can do though ; todos : adaptive pressure control, active cooling, touchscreen, process, ... \uD83D\uDE42\n\n#regenrohrhack\n#naturalpixeldifuser\n#wormtrafficjam\n#multiplexernoise",
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      "content": "adaptive pressure control : needed for the motorized version of the injector as well; if anyone wants, or has ideas ....",
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      "content": "might be an interesting exercise : smart sun collector & plant turret @ home \uD83D\uDE42",
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      "content": "How about something like this? https://github.com/multiplanetaryhomestead/reprap-chinampa",
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